: CityNews from Linux Cafe

[Gary Layng]

Anybody notice that CityNews' weather forecast at 11:00 last night
was from the Linux Cafe?

They had a giant Tux on screen, saying only a penguin would find a
night that cold to be nice and warm.
--
Stephen Fry:

It is not science that is arrogant: science can be defined as ‘humility
before the facts’ — it is those who refuse to submit to testing and
make unsubstantiated claims that are arrogant. Arrogant and unjust.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

[Pete Lancashire]

hope not considered spam ..

----------------------
From: monty-***@public.gmane.org [monty-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Friday, 1 January 2010 9:27 p.m.
Subject: Help save MySQL; Sign the petition

Hi!

I am contacting you because you have in the past shown interest in
MySQL and from that I assume you are interested in the future
well-being of MySQL.

Now you have a unique opportunity to make a difference. By signing
the petition at http://www.helpmysql.org you can help affect the
future of MySQL as an Open Source database.

You can find more information of this on my latest blog post at:
http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-keep-internet-free.html

Help us spread the world about this petition!
http://www.helpmysql.org is available in 18 languages and every vote
is important, independent of from where in the world it comes!
If you know people that are using MySQL, please contact them and
ensure they also sign the petition!

Regards,
Monty
Creator of MySQL

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

[Dave Cramer]

Perhaps he should have considered this *before* he took their money.


--dc--

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Pete Lancashire

Post by Pete Lancashire
hope not considered spam ..
----------------------
Sent: Friday, 1 January 2010 9:27 p.m.
Subject: Help save MySQL; Sign the petition
Hi!
I am contacting you because you have in the past shown interest in
MySQL and from that I assume you are interested in the future
well-being of MySQL.
Now you have a unique opportunity to make a difference.  By signing
the petition at http://www.helpmysql.org you can help affect the
future of MySQL as an Open Source database.
http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-keep-internet-free.html
Help us spread the world about this petition!
http://www.helpmysql.org is available in 18 languages and every vote
is important, independent of from where in the world it comes!
If you know people that are using MySQL, please contact them and
ensure they also sign the petition!
Regards,
Monty
Creator of MySQL
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group.      Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

[D. Hugh Redelmeier]

| From: Dave Cramer <davec-zxk95TxsVYDyHADnj0MGvQC/***@public.gmane.org>

| Perhaps he should have considered this *before* he took their money.

I never felt comfortable with the dual-license model. Both Asterix
and MySQL are problematic. But I do understand why the developers
decided to do this.

The threat Monty identifies comes out of the dual license model.

The threat also comes out of the nature of competition and monopolies.
I don't think that Oracle should be able to buy MySQL to reduce
competition. The incentives for Oracle just work the wrong way for
MySQL users and contributors.

I cannot sign the petition since I don't use MySQL for profesionally.
People I trust recommend PostgreSQL over MySQL and I like its license
better.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

[lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/ (Lennart Sorensen)]

Post by D. Hugh Redelmeier
| Perhaps he should have considered this *before* he took their money.
I never felt comfortable with the dual-license model. Both Asterix
and MySQL are problematic. But I do understand why the developers
decided to do this.
The threat Monty identifies comes out of the dual license model.
The threat also comes out of the nature of competition and monopolies.
I don't think that Oracle should be able to buy MySQL to reduce
competition. The incentives for Oracle just work the wrong way for
MySQL users and contributors.
I cannot sign the petition since I don't use MySQL for profesionally.
People I trust recommend PostgreSQL over MySQL and I like its license
better.

I personally think the world would be better off without mysql so people
could finally start using postgresql for everything instead.

I will not miss mysql if it were to disappear (which I doubt it will).

[Rajinder Yadav]

Post by Pete Lancashire
hope not considered spam ..
----------------------
Sent: Friday, 1 January 2010 9:27 p.m.
Subject: Help save MySQL; Sign the petition
Hi!
I am contacting you because you have in the past shown interest in
MySQL and from that I assume you are interested in the future
well-being of MySQL.
Now you have a unique opportunity to make a difference. By signing
the petition at http://www.helpmysql.org you can help affect the
future of MySQL as an Open Source database.
http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-keep-internet-free.html
Help us spread the world about this petition!
http://www.helpmysql.org is available in 18 languages and every vote
is important, independent of from where in the world it comes!
If you know people that are using MySQL, please contact them and
ensure they also sign the petition!
Regards,
Monty
Creator of MySQL

Nice case study on how not to pooche an opensource project, kudos to
Monty and his gang!

[Stephen]

I signed the petition.

Can someone explain how Oracle can threaten an Open Source database?

Can someone, like me, not just grab all the source code and use it as I
please, subject to the GPL?

I did read mention of patents. Is this the issue?

How can patents come out of an open source project?

Thanks for replies.

Stephen
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

[Robert Brockway]

Post by Stephen
Can someone explain how Oracle can threaten an Open Source database?

Hi Stephen. The argument pertains to 'mind share'.

First off it is worth noting that MySQL is distributed under a dual
licencing model. MySQL AB (the company) and its successors required
reassignment of copyright to the company for any contributions. This is
so that they are free to release the code under a non-OSS licence without
having to seek the permission of other copyright holders. This
arrangement is fairly unusual among OSS projects but it seems to have
worked well for MySQL up to this point.

The copyright holder could choose to only release future versions under a
closed source licence but that would still leave current & past versions
OSS.

Sun currently owns the name MySQL, associated images, trademarks and
parents. This would all go to Oracle in the purchase.

Post by Stephen
Can someone, like me, not just grab all the source code and use it as I
please, subject to the GPL?

If Oracle decided not to release MySQL under an OSS licence in the future
then a code forked version could of course continue under an OSS licence
but it would do so under a new name.

There is an argument (that I don't necessarily agree with) that a code
forked version is at a disadvantage because the name as mind share,
especially among those who are not OSS geeks. I'm not convinced this is a
big problem as plenty of projects have forked (under new names) and taken
a good deal of the developer and user community with them. Examples in
clude OpenBSD forking from NetBSD & LedgerSMB forking from SQL-Ledger. In
effect developers and users find the tool that fits their needs and they
use it.

Post by Stephen
I did read mention of patents. Is this the issue?

I believe it could be an issue if the patent holder (Sun/Oracle) decided
to use the patent against a forked project. My understanding is that
merely failing to defend a patent eventually invalidates it so it is
unclear to me if the patent threat is real.

In any case I think the current patent system has so many problems that I
believe a lot of corporations are acting like we have a working patent
system when I'm not convinced it is working at all. It's been estimated
that any sizable software project is violating a patent somewhere since
there are so many these days and they are so easy to get.

Post by Stephen
How can patents come out of an open source project?

I'm not even going to attempt to answer that ;)

IANAL.

Rob

[William Muriithi]

Post by Robert Brockway
If Oracle decided not to release MySQL under an OSS licence in the future
then a code forked version could of course continue under an OSS licence but
it would do so under a new name.

Actually, it looks like they are not going to be changing anything. It
actually may get more funding, so in the medium time, this may not be
bad for mysql.

Not sure this is because Larry feel okay about mysql or its because he
feel EU may torpedo his Sun deal if he refuse to shape up. We may
never know.

http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/press/042364

Found point 6 very interesting

Post by Robert Brockway
There is an argument (that I don't necessarily agree with) that a code
forked version is at a disadvantage because the name as mind share,
especially among those who are not OSS geeks.  I'm not convinced this is a
big problem as plenty of projects have forked (under new names) and taken a
good deal of the developer and user community with them.  Examples in clude
OpenBSD forking from NetBSD & LedgerSMB forking from SQL-Ledger.  In effect
developers and users find the tool that fits their needs and they use it.

Post by Stephen
I did read mention of patents. Is this the issue?

Actually, if the mind share is only strong among the geeks, its not a
big deal. We are petty good at following those stuff. Have not heard
anybody mention Xfree86 for a long time.

It may be a different case though if the name is strong among managerss

Regards
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

[Christopher Browne]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 11:23 AM, William Muriithi

Post by William Muriithi
Actually, if the mind share is only strong among the geeks, its not a
big deal. We are petty good at following those stuff. Have not heard
anybody mention Xfree86 for a long time.

It's fairly surprising how quickly XFree86 disappeared from relevance
when a considerable portion of the developers switched over to work on
X.org. There's definitely something cautionary there.

The cases of OpenBSD versus NetBSD and SQL-Leger versus LedgerSMB are
cautionary in "character" terms; both have associated participants
that said more-or-less unforgivably insulting things that helped
expose the gap between the respective communities.

[lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/ (Lennart Sorensen)]

Post by Christopher Browne
It's fairly surprising how quickly XFree86 disappeared from relevance
when a considerable portion of the developers switched over to work on
X.org. There's definitely something cautionary there.

Well given the xfree86 maintainers had become totally impossible to work
with, I think all the distributions were just waiting for a way to stop
dealing with it.

Post by Christopher Browne
The cases of OpenBSD versus NetBSD and SQL-Leger versus LedgerSMB are
cautionary in "character" terms; both have associated participants
that said more-or-less unforgivably insulting things that helped
expose the gap between the respective communities.

Sounds about right to me.

[Christopher Browne]

Post by Stephen
I signed the petition.

Before knowing why it would be useful (or not!) to do so?

Perhaps you're signing a petition that's a *bad* thing, and I daresay
that with the questions you leave open, it's not evident that you
ought to consider that you know one way or another.

Post by Stephen
Can someone explain how Oracle can threaten an Open Source database?

I think Larry Ellison has a bunch of samurai swords... Those can be
pretty threatening.

Post by Stephen
Can someone, like me, not just grab all the source code and use it as I
please, subject to the GPL?

Certainly.

There are some issues as to how to *interpret* the GPL. MySQL AB has
had a long history of having torturous interpretations that they so
tortured pretty clearly to encourage people to buy traditional
(non-GPL) proprietary licenses from them.

It's pretty clear that Monty's not happy about control over
proprietary licenses being in Oracle's hands.

Post by Stephen
I did read mention of patents. Is this the issue?

It shouldn't; I don't believe that MySQL AB held any patents, and
that's the only way in which patents could actually be relevant to the
matter in a fashion that would make the question of Oracle's ownership
of MySQL AB a matter of interest.

Post by Stephen
How can patents come out of an open source project?

They don't. Someone has to apply for a patent, and the relevant 3
parties who could would be:
a) MySQL AB
b) Sun Microsystems
c) Oracle

If Oracle owns the other 2, then they have control of the patents and
hence are known not to infringe on them.

Anyone else that infringed on the patents would infringe against
whomever is the holder of the patent, and it's actually not terribly
relevant which of the 3 parties it is, it's infringement, regardless.

[Christopher Browne]

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Pete Lancashire

Post by Pete Lancashire
Now you have a unique opportunity to make a difference.  By signing
the petition at http://www.helpmysql.org you can help affect the
future of MySQL as an Open Source database.

I believe that Monty has gone through two phases of "selling out"
already. (e.g. - sold MySQL AB to Sun, then presumably some internal
dealings at the time that he he left Sun.)

Perhaps he wants people to believe that *this* time he's doing the right thing?

I don't believe him, either. Monty makes stuff up when it's
convenient to do so.

Notably: (from http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-keep-internet-free.htm)

"While Linux is indeed distributed under the GPL, as is MySQL, Linux
has an exception that allows anyone to run any kind of applications
(including closed source applications) on top of Linux."

There's no such "exception" in Linux. Total rubbish, but consistent
with the old MySQL AB contention that "if you use our app for
commercial purposes, you should buy proprietary licenses from us"
thing.

[CLIFFORD ILKAY]

Post by Pete Lancashire
hope not considered spam ..
----------------------
Sent: Friday, 1 January 2010 9:27 p.m.
Subject: Help save MySQL; Sign the petition
Hi!
I am contacting you because you have in the past shown interest in
MySQL and from that I assume you are interested in the future
well-being of MySQL.

I read his blog post
<http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-keep-internet-free.html>
and found it to be more than just a little self-serving. If MySQL is
such a wonderful product, it will survive even Oracle trying to kill it.
If not, then nothing was lost and the market will work around the "damage".
--
Regards,

Clifford Ilkay
Dinamis
1419-3266 Yonge St.
Toronto, ON
Canada M4N 3P6

<http://dinamis.com>
[phone]
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

[Christopher Browne]

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Pete Lancashire

Post by Pete Lancashire
Now you have a unique opportunity to make a difference.  By signing
the petition at http://www.helpmysql.org you can help affect the
future of MySQL as an Open Source database.

Here's some more-or-less entertaining opposing perspectives, the first
of which proposes a web site called http://shutupmonty.com

http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/oracle-guide/shut-up-monty-36210
http://holdenweb.blogspot.com/2010/01/wht-save-mysql-now.html

[lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/ (Lennart Sorensen)]

Post by Christopher Browne
Here's some more-or-less entertaining opposing perspectives, the first
of which proposes a web site called http://shutupmonty.com
http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/oracle-guide/shut-up-monty-36210
http://holdenweb.blogspot.com/2010/01/wht-save-mysql-now.html

I like mrx's comment (currently the last one).

[David J Patrick]

Post by Gary Layng
Anybody notice that CityNews' weather forecast at 11:00 last night
was from the Linux Cafe?

I noticed, but only cuz I was workin it.
How did it look ? Bustling ? Inviting ?
Cold on the outside, warm on the inside ?
djp

Post by Gary Layng
They had a giant Tux on screen, saying only a penguin would find a
night that cold to be nice and warm.

and in that, they would be correct ;-)

--
The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

[Gary Layng]

Friendly and warm on the inside, Extreme Cold Alert on the
outside... and the poor shivering weather reporter was outside.
^_^

Post by David J Patrick

Post by Gary Layng
Anybody notice that CityNews' weather forecast at 11:00 last

night

Post by David J Patrick

Post by Gary Layng
was from the Linux Cafe?

I noticed, but only cuz I was workin it.
How did it look ? Bustling ? Inviting ?
Cold on the outside, warm on the inside ?
djp

Post by Gary Layng
They had a giant Tux on screen, saying only a penguin would

find a

Post by David J Patrick

Post by Gary Layng
night that cold to be nice and warm.

and in that, they would be correct ;-)
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80

columns

Post by David J Patrick
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

--
Stephen Fry:

It is not science that is arrogant: science can be defined as ‘humility
before the facts’ — it is those who refuse to submit to testing and
make unsubstantiated claims that are arrogant. Arrogant and
unjust.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://gtalug.org/
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://gtalug.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

[Christopher Browne]

Post by Gary Layng
Friendly and warm on the inside, Extreme Cold Alert on the
outside... and the poor shivering weather reporter was outside.

??? -10C is "Extreme Cold" ???

Is this what convinced Mayor Lastman to call up the Army that time we
had a bit of snow???

Yes, it's no longer "fall jacket" time, but it's not as if it's a
crisp day at -45 in Saskatoon...