Discussion:
: Data Recovery
(too old to reply)
JoeHill
2004-08-11 20:30:30 UTC
Permalink
Before I just let my fingers do the walking, can anyone recommend a data
recovery shop they've dealt with? I have a HD with data that it would be nice
to recover, but it's not even detected by the BIOS, let alone a rescue CD or
floppy.

Thanks all!
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c***@public.gmane.org
2004-08-11 22:17:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by JoeHill
Before I just let my fingers do the walking, can anyone recommend a data
recovery shop they've dealt with? I have a HD with data that it would be nice
to recover, but it's not even detected by the BIOS, let alone a rescue CD or
floppy.
We had a talk last fall from ActionFront Data Recovery
<http://www.actionfront.com/> who seemed fairly clueful.

It's not cheap, and the results are pretty forcibly limited.

Make sure you unplug your device ASAP, and don't plug it in again lest
you damage it further, if you're heading down this road...
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JoeHill
2004-08-12 22:27:51 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 18:17:44 -0400
Post by c***@public.gmane.org
Post by JoeHill
Before I just let my fingers do the walking, can anyone recommend a data
recovery shop they've dealt with? I have a HD with data that it would be nice
to recover, but it's not even detected by the BIOS, let alone a rescue CD or
floppy.
We had a talk last fall from ActionFront Data Recovery
<http://www.actionfront.com/> who seemed fairly clueful.
It's not cheap, and the results are pretty forcibly limited.
Ya, I got an offlist reply about the costs involved. The owner of this drive is
not going to be a happy camper.
Post by c***@public.gmane.org
Make sure you unplug your device ASAP, and don't plug it in again lest
you damage it further, if you're heading down this road...
Thanks for the tip. I'm not into beating my head against a dead horse anyhow ;-)
--
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18:22:45 up 8 days, 18:05, 8 users, load average: 0.17, 0.04, 0.01
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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as liberators, according to a Coalition Provisional Authority poll." --
Financial Times, June 17 2004
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lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/ (Lennart Sorensen)
2004-08-13 14:14:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by JoeHill
Thanks for the tip. I'm not into beating my head against a dead horse anyhow ;-)
I assume you have checked with a different cable and a different ide
controller?

Lennart Sorensen
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JoeHill
2004-08-13 22:39:37 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:14:15 -0400
Post by lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/ (Lennart Sorensen)
Post by JoeHill
Thanks for the tip. I'm not into beating my head against a dead horse anyhow ;-)
I assume you have checked with a different cable and a different ide
controller?
Never thought of that. What a silly bunt. However...Clickety-click, *no* Barba
trick ;-)

BTW, I meant to ask before, why in the name of all that is holy is it so
freaking hard to disconnect power cables from HD's?!
--
JoeHill RLU #282046 / www.freeyourmachine.org
18:36:43 up 9 days, 18:19, 8 users, load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.18
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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are uniquely violent animals, barely restrained from committing atrocities on
each other by the constraints of ethics, religion, and the state." -- Eric S.
Raymond
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Henry Spencer
2004-08-13 22:46:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by JoeHill
BTW, I meant to ask before, why in the name of all that is holy is it so
freaking hard to disconnect power cables from HD's?!
Well, you don't want them to disconnect themselves by accident...! :-)

That said, it's hard because they use an old, cheap connector design,
which we now seem to be stuck with forever. It's all IBM's fault. :-)

Henry Spencer
henry-***@public.gmane.org

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Peter L. Peres
2004-08-14 16:04:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henry Spencer
Post by JoeHill
BTW, I meant to ask before, why in the name of all that is holy is it so
freaking hard to disconnect power cables from HD's?!
Well, you don't want them to disconnect themselves by accident...! :-)
That said, it's hard because they use an old, cheap connector design,
which we now seem to be stuck with forever. It's all IBM's fault. :-)
It happens to be a good and not so cheap connector that is widely
available. Nearly all connectors of this type come in two flavors:
standard (assembly connector) and easy disconnect. The difference is the
height of the little claws that make removal so hard. I have never seen a
IDE power connector (Amphenol something or other) of the 'easy disconnect'
type but you can dyi: take a sharp carpet knife and remove about half the
height of the plastic bumps on the male connector. Use this at your own
risk.

Peter
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Aaron Vegh
2004-08-14 13:33:17 UTC
Permalink
Good day,
I was wondering if anyone here knows about programming courses in the
Toronto area? And I'm not talking about VB, Visual C++, .NET stuff. I
want to learn the stuff the hackers use -- from the shell to C to C++
to Python... in short, how to program in an open source environment.

It's a Windows world out there, and if you know anyone that says
different, I'd love to meet them.

Thanks,
Aaron.
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James Knott
2004-08-14 18:08:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron Vegh
Good day,
I was wondering if anyone here knows about programming courses in the
Toronto area? And I'm not talking about VB, Visual C++, .NET stuff. I
want to learn the stuff the hackers use -- from the shell to C to C++
to Python... in short, how to program in an open source environment.
It's a Windows world out there, and if you know anyone that says
different, I'd love to meet them.
Thanks,
Aaron.
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Look at the various school calendars. Try to find the ones that teach
languages, not applications. For example, a few years ago, I studied C
at George Brown College and Basic, Pascal, Fortran and 6809 assembler at
Ryerson.

If you've already done some programming, you might be able to get by
with some books.

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littleguru
2004-08-14 18:27:55 UTC
Permalink
What about CO-OP ? or Volunteer job to start linux programming .
I am interested to start learning as CO-OP , volunteer , or apprenticeship.
please let me know if you know a place that I can apply.

Thanks
Post by Aaron Vegh
Good day,
I was wondering if anyone here knows about programming courses in the
Toronto area? And I'm not talking about VB, Visual C++, .NET stuff. I
want to learn the stuff the hackers use -- from the shell to C to C++
to Python... in short, how to program in an open source environment.
It's a Windows world out there, and if you know anyone that says
different, I'd love to meet them.
Thanks,
Aaron.
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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Look at the various school calendars. Try to find the ones that teach
languages, not applications. For example, a few years ago, I studied C
at George Brown College and Basic, Pascal, Fortran and 6809 assembler
at Ryerson.
If you've already done some programming, you might be able to get by
with some books.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
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fcsoft-3Emkkp+
2004-08-15 11:46:06 UTC
Permalink
There are thousands of open source projects on Sourceforge.net that would
welcome volunteers.

I'm personally involved with 2 of those who would gladly help beginners get
up to speed.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/simpl
https://sourceforge.net/projects/ioanywhere

I think a volunteer co-op or apprenticeship program is a great idea too.

It is an unfortunate statement of our times when so much of our experienced
programmer skill base is unemployed or underemployed. We are in great
danger of losing those skills forever unless we can find ways to transfer
them to the younger generation and then find ways for that generation to
become productively employed in situations where they can continue to hone
and develop those skills.

bob
Post by littleguru
What about CO-OP ? or Volunteer job to start linux programming .
I am interested to start learning as CO-OP , volunteer , or apprenticeship.
please let me know if you know a place that I can apply.
Thanks
Post by Aaron Vegh
Good day,
I was wondering if anyone here knows about programming courses in the
Toronto area? And I'm not talking about VB, Visual C++, .NET stuff. I
want to learn the stuff the hackers use -- from the shell to C to C++
to Python... in short, how to program in an open source environment.
It's a Windows world out there, and if you know anyone that says
different, I'd love to meet them.
Thanks,
Aaron.
--
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TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
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Look at the various school calendars. Try to find the ones that teach
languages, not applications. For example, a few years ago, I studied C
at George Brown College and Basic, Pascal, Fortran and 6809 assembler
at Ryerson.
If you've already done some programming, you might be able to get by
with some books.
--
The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org
TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns
How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml
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Phillip Mills
2004-08-15 12:45:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by fcsoft-3Emkkp+
I think a volunteer co-op or apprenticeship program is a great idea too.
Even the volunteer idea turns out to be something of a dead end. A
little over a year ago, I tried to go that route as a way of keeping
sharp, doing some good at the same time, various other reasons.... I
posted an offer here and got a couple of feelers that didn't turn out.
The funniest reaction, though -- not connected to TLUG -- was from an
HR person at a large charity who seemed very suspicious that anyone
would volunteer to do IT work. When I explained that I thought
volunteering was a good thing generally and that I'd like to do it in a
way that actually made use of the skills I had, she stopped responding
completely.

So, anyone who can get through to the non-profit community with the
idea that help is available, let me know how you pulled it off.
Post by fcsoft-3Emkkp+
It is an unfortunate statement of our times when so much of our experienced
programmer skill base is unemployed or underemployed.
For all kinds of semi-obvious, self-involved reasons (i.e. 26 years in
development), I couldn't agree more. :-)

........................
Phillip Mills
Multi-platform software development
(416) 224-0714

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Rob Sutherland
2004-08-15 13:33:02 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 08:45:26 -0400
Post by Phillip Mills
Post by fcsoft-3Emkkp+
I think a volunteer co-op or apprenticeship program is a great idea too.
posted an offer here and got a couple of feelers that didn't turn out.
The funniest reaction, though -- not connected to TLUG -- was from an
HR person at a large charity who seemed very suspicious that anyone
would volunteer to do IT work. When I explained that I thought
volunteering was a good thing generally and that I'd like to do it in a
way that actually made use of the skills I had, she stopped responding
completely.
So, anyone who can get through to the non-profit community with the
idea that help is available, let me know how you pulled it off.
Well, *I* sure don't know :-) That's exactly the reaction I got, nothing but
paranoia. I don't know, I've worked for some pretty nasty people in the
corporate sector, but in terms of sheer petty nastiness and manipulative
treachery the non-profit sector can hold it's head high :-) Errr...present
company excepted & IMHO :-)

I guess my answer to the problem of picking up experience was to find an
idiot who managed to row out past the end of the dock before he burned
his boat to the waterline. Then I took a running jump off the end of the
dock and managed to cobble a raft together :-) Idiots being what they are,
he succeeded in doing the same thing again, at which point I decided I'd
learned enough :-)

This is not the easiest way to do it, but if you can avoid assault charges
and suicide you can get a lot of experience quickly. And being involved in
a complete disaster early on in your career can be very useful in learning
the warning signs.
Post by Phillip Mills
Post by fcsoft-3Emkkp+
It is an unfortunate statement of our times when so much of our experienced
programmer skill base is unemployed or underemployed.
For all kinds of semi-obvious, self-involved reasons (i.e. 26 years in
development), I couldn't agree more. :-)
it *is* unfortionate. That's one of the true potentials of Open Source, the
ability to pull those people into useful roles in their own community rather
than lining up for a job in a call center.

Rob
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James McIntosh
2004-08-15 23:22:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob Sutherland
Post by Phillip Mills
Post by fcsoft-3Emkkp+
It is an unfortunate statement of our times when so much of our experienced
programmer skill base is unemployed or underemployed.
For all kinds of semi-obvious, self-involved reasons (i.e. 26 years in
development), I couldn't agree more. :-)
it *is* unfortionate. That's one of the true potentials of Open Source, the
ability to pull those people into useful roles in their own community rather
than lining up for a job in a call center.
I have experience in so many computer software programming technologies
that I could fill several pages just listing them. Resumes cannot contain
them all, because people ask that the resume be only 2 pages, including
contact information, formal education, and job history.

I have noticed that my lifetime savings grand total is plummetting towards
zero at a rate which gives me insomnia, about to reach zero in a few weeks,
and everyone tells me that I have no marketable skills.

I am now begging to work 20 hours a week for $9 an hour in a call centre.

Welfare won't give you a cent if you still have $500 grand total gross assets.

Welfare pays only $320/month for rent, plus $200 for all other expenses
combined -- food, telephone, etc.

If you cannot rent something for $320/month, welfare is cut off. They say
that you are abusing and defrauding the system. You get zero. Just try to
find rental places for $320/month.

Work on Open Source is not feasible: it pays nothing.

Work in a call centre will postpone eviction from my apartment.

Criticism of work in a call centre can come only from the rich ivory-tower
upper class.


Jim McIntosh 416-292-8126 <jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/***@public.gmane.org>
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Rob Sutherland
2004-08-16 11:16:51 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 23:22:28
Post by James McIntosh
Work on Open Source is not feasible: it pays nothing.
Work in a call centre will postpone eviction from my apartment.
Criticism of work in a call centre can come only from the rich ivory-tower
upper class.
You are incorrect in 4 points....

First, I was not criticising the need to work and the acceptance of grim reality.
There *are* worse alternatives than working in a call center, but there are better
as well. To hang in until you find them, yeah, you have to do it. I've worked in
a call center and it sucks and it's a waste of talent.

Second, yes, you can make money working on OS, I'm doing it right now, mainly by
theming and customizing packages and training rather than working directly on
package development, which is what I think you mean.

Third, anyone can criticize anything, I mean, just read this list :-) Also,
even if I *was* a member of the 'rich ivory-tower upper class' I might still
be right :-)

Fourth, I've also been told I had no marketable skills, in spite of a fairly
long resume. What I discovered was that I had no marketing skills and actually
no market - at that time.

Well, this seems like a good place to end this thread...

Rob
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Rick Tomaschuk
2004-08-22 20:34:55 UTC
Permalink
Linux skills seem to be in demand now more than ever according to the
NEWSLETTER BELOW...My experience has been that you need to offer skills in
many platforms. Often a job description with an outrageous amout of experience is
an "employer wish list". If you have a GOOD personality its a real plus.
All the best,
Rick Tomaschuk
http://www.TorontoNUI.ca

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Post by Rob Sutherland
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 23:22:28
Post by James McIntosh
Work on Open Source is not feasible: it pays nothing.
Work in a call centre will postpone eviction from my apartment.
Criticism of work in a call centre can come only from the rich ivory-tower
upper class.
You are incorrect in 4 points....
First, I was not criticising the need to work and the acceptance of grim reality.
There *are* worse alternatives than working in a call center, but there are better
as well. To hang in until you find them, yeah, you have to do it. I've worked in
a call center and it sucks and it's a waste of talent.
Second, yes, you can make money working on OS, I'm doing it right now, mainly by
theming and customizing packages and training rather than working directly on
package development, which is what I think you mean.
Third, anyone can criticize anything, I mean, just read this list :-) Also,
even if I *was* a member of the 'rich ivory-tower upper class' I might still
be right :-)
Fourth, I've also been told I had no marketable skills, in spite of a fairly
long resume. What I discovered was that I had no marketing skills and actually
no market - at that time.
Well, this seems like a good place to end this thread...
Rob
--
Computer Support at http://www.cheapersafer.com
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James Knott
2004-08-22 21:54:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Tomaschuk
Linux skills seem to be in demand now more than ever according to the
NEWSLETTER BELOW...My experience has been that you need to offer skills in
many platforms. Often a job description with an outrageous amout of experience is
an "employer wish list". If you have a GOOD personality its a real plus.
The big part is getting past HR types, who insist every skill listed is
essential and won't talk to you, if you don't have them all. Then
there's the positions where they want more experience, than the
technology's been around. I even saw one ad, where they wanted a recent
grad, with three years experience!
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c***@public.gmane.org
2004-08-22 22:22:37 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 17:54:33 EDT, the world broke into rejoicing as
Post by James Knott
Post by Rick Tomaschuk
Linux skills seem to be in demand now more than ever according to the
NEWSLETTER BELOW...My experience has been that you need to offer
skills in many platforms. Often a job description with an outrageous
amout of experience is an "employer wish list". If you have a GOOD
personality its a real plus.
The big part is getting past HR types, who insist every skill listed
is essential and won't talk to you, if you don't have them all. Then
there's the positions where they want more experience, than the
technology's been around. I even saw one ad, where they wanted a
recent grad, with three years experience!
I think the best one I ever saw was a job posting expecting people with
3 years of NeXTStep experience when NeXT had just released its first
products a few months prior. (Yeah, that was a while ago :-).)

Those looking for people with years and years of .NET experience also
seem similarly stupid...
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James Knott
2004-08-22 22:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@public.gmane.org
I think the best one I ever saw was a job posting expecting people with
3 years of NeXTStep experience when NeXT had just released its first
products a few months prior. (Yeah, that was a while ago :-).)
Those looking for people with years and years of .NET experience also
seem similarly stupid...
One ad that really annoyed me, was back when Bob Rae was premier. In
the ad, for a position with the provincial government, they had a long
list of preferred candidates, such as visible minority, female, native,
handicapped etc. I soon realized that as a healthy white male, there
was no point in even applying.

Discrimination is discrimination, no matter how you slice it.


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Ralph Doncaster
2004-08-23 00:09:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@public.gmane.org
I think the best one I ever saw was a job posting expecting people with
3 years of NeXTStep experience when NeXT had just released its first
products a few months prior. (Yeah, that was a while ago :-).)
Those looking for people with years and years of .NET experience also
seem similarly stupid...
I find it rather ironic when people complain about not getting an
interview at a company due to stupid hiring practices. If it's a dumb
company, why would anyone intelligent want to work there?

Ralph Doncaster, IStop.com president
6042147 Canada Inc.

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Christopher Browne
2004-08-23 00:25:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Doncaster
Post by c***@public.gmane.org
I think the best one I ever saw was a job posting expecting people
with 3 years of NeXTStep experience when NeXT had just released its
first products a few months prior. (Yeah, that was a while ago :-).)
Those looking for people with years and years of .NET experience also
seem similarly stupid...
I find it rather ironic when people complain about not getting an
interview at a company due to stupid hiring practices. If it's a dumb
company, why would anyone intelligent want to work there?
Ah, but as soon as a company grows past, say, 1000 employees, it's
guaranteed that they need to implement a central HR function, and it's
the people that are "HR specialists" that are clueless in this fashion.

There may be perfectly competent techie folk around; it's just that you
can't get to them unless you can get through HR.
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Ralph Doncaster
2004-08-23 00:46:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Browne
Post by Ralph Doncaster
Post by c***@public.gmane.org
Those looking for people with years and years of .NET experience also
seem similarly stupid...
I find it rather ironic when people complain about not getting an
interview at a company due to stupid hiring practices. If it's a dumb
company, why would anyone intelligent want to work there?
There may be perfectly competent techie folk around; it's just that you
can't get to them unless you can get through HR.
In all the companies I worked for, HR didn't make up the requirements on
their own. So if you see a job listed with 5yrs of 802.1x experience as a
requirement, chances are that the group manager (not just HR) is pretty
stupid.

What I have also found is that when someone wants to get a job at a
company and they don't get it, they'll often find excuses for why it's not
their fault.

If you're looking for technical job (linux-related or otherwise) remember
what counts for a business: money. Most people would be better off to get
a $9/hr helpdesk job in a company and work your way up from there instead
of spending $5K/yr in tuition for a degree or diploma in computers.

-Ralph
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Chris F.A. Johnson
2004-08-23 00:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Doncaster
Post by c***@public.gmane.org
I think the best one I ever saw was a job posting expecting people with
3 years of NeXTStep experience when NeXT had just released its first
products a few months prior. (Yeah, that was a while ago :-).)
Those looking for people with years and years of .NET experience also
seem similarly stupid...
I find it rather ironic when people complain about not getting an
interview at a company due to stupid hiring practices. If it's a dumb
company, why would anyone intelligent want to work there?
Two reasons, at least:

One is desperate for a job.

The HR dept. is not representative of other departments in the
company.
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=================================================================
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Ralph Doncaster
2004-08-23 00:52:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris F.A. Johnson
Post by Ralph Doncaster
I find it rather ironic when people complain about not getting an
interview at a company due to stupid hiring practices. If it's a dumb
company, why would anyone intelligent want to work there?
One is desperate for a job.
If you're desperate then you're not picky and demanding. Virtually anyone
who can speak English and knows how to double-click a mouse can get a
$9/hr helpdesk job. And if you have a couple clues to rub together I've
heard of some helpdesk jobs in the GTA paying $30K salary.

-Ralph
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James Knott
2004-08-23 01:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Doncaster
Post by c***@public.gmane.org
I think the best one I ever saw was a job posting expecting people with
3 years of NeXTStep experience when NeXT had just released its first
products a few months prior. (Yeah, that was a while ago :-).)
Those looking for people with years and years of .NET experience also
seem similarly stupid...
I find it rather ironic when people complain about not getting an
interview at a company due to stupid hiring practices. If it's a dumb
company, why would anyone intelligent want to work there?
Some times, it's an agency that's doing the filtering. Most of the
one's I've talked to, tend not to know the situation.
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c***@public.gmane.org
2004-08-23 03:29:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Knott
Some times, it's an agency that's doing the filtering. Most of the
one's I've talked to, tend not to know the situation.
Ah, yes, I forgot about that option.

Yes, it would certainly add to the "lack of clue" if the organization
doing some filtering isn't even really related to the one doing the
actual hiring.

A major point to "agencies" is that they get in piles of resumes, and
will do [whatever it is they do] to filter that down to the few that are
purportedly useful.

Compare that to BigCorp Inc announcing a job in the papers, and having
2700 applicants send in resumes, of which 2400 were completely
frivolous, but where many of those would happily come back and sue
BigCorp Inc if they found any evidence that those resumes weren't all
treated according to a policy of "due respect."

Essentially, the agency does the trashcanning of the _really_ frivolous
ones, separating BigCorp Inc from a whole whack of paperwork, and
possibly some legal liability vis-a-vis possible discrimination. The
agency might use screening criterion that BigCorp isn't allowed to, but
as long as nobody asks and nobody tells, both parties remain happy.

And those that might have been discriminated against have nobody to go
after, because:
a) BigCorp didn't do anything wrong, and
b) AgencyScreener wasn't going to hire them because they don't hire
_anybody_.

It's pretty crummy, in some ways, but I'm not sure but that the
alternatives might be worse :-(.
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Clive DaSilva
2004-08-23 02:11:35 UTC
Permalink
Hey Ralph

umm, these are tough times, some folks myself included, have to take
whatever they can get.
pretty sad but for most people (that I know anyway) thats where its at

my 2 bits

Clive
Post by Ralph Doncaster
Post by c***@public.gmane.org
I think the best one I ever saw was a job posting expecting people with
3 years of NeXTStep experience when NeXT had just released its first
products a few months prior. (Yeah, that was a while ago :-).)
Those looking for people with years and years of .NET experience also
seem similarly stupid...
I find it rather ironic when people complain about not getting an
interview at a company due to stupid hiring practices. If it's a dumb
company, why would anyone intelligent want to work there?
Ralph Doncaster, IStop.com president
6042147 Canada Inc.
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Linux Mandrake 9.1 kernel 2.4.21



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Phillip Mills
2004-08-23 13:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Doncaster
I find it rather ironic when people complain about not getting an
interview at a company due to stupid hiring practices. If it's a dumb
company, why would anyone intelligent want to work there?
If a company is doing interesting things with neat technology, it may
not be a dumb company. If it's of any size at all, it may have a
"dumb" employee...or a smart employee who did a "dumb" thing. (Let's
see...have I *ever* felt as if I could be described that way?)

Also, no job description for a position with any creative scope ever
survives contact with reality. Within a month, the person getting the
job will have modified it by applying knowledge that the hiring manager
didn't have. Even without that, in any technology-oriented company,
people, projects, and goals change frequently. (Which is why I shake
my head so often at ads that insist on experience with "SomeDatabase
version 13.04".)

Apart from discouraging capable candidates, the problem with
ridiculous/impossible requirements is that a literal, checklist
approach to screening responses gets the managers interviewees who have
been selected for their ability to generate B.S.

........................
Phillip Mills
Multi-platform software development
(416) 224-0714

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t***@public.gmane.org
2004-08-23 14:15:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Mills
Post by Ralph Doncaster
I find it rather ironic when people complain about not getting an
interview at a company due to stupid hiring practices. If it's a dumb
company, why would anyone intelligent want to work there?
If a company is doing interesting things with neat technology, it may
not be a dumb company. If it's of any size at all, it may have a
"dumb" employee...or a smart employee who did a "dumb" thing. (Let's
see...have I *ever* felt as if I could be described that way?)
I agree .. I once took a job at an organization that supplied computing
services to an insurance company, so to say it was bureaucratic would be
an understatement. They were also a 45 minute commute away, but they
wanted to hire me to work on application development in OS/2 (in 1990)
which was exactly the field I wanted to work in, and one that I thought
would take off.
Post by Phillip Mills
Also, no job description for a position with any creative scope ever
survives contact with reality. Within a month, the person getting the
job will have modified it by applying knowledge that the hiring manager
didn't have. Even without that, in any technology-oriented company,
people, projects, and goals change frequently. (Which is why I shake
my head so often at ads that insist on experience with "SomeDatabase
version 13.04".)
This is a good time to roll out my Boneheaded Headhunter story, where he'd
written down something to do with networking digital's VAX systems called
DELNET. I explained that it was the _digital equipment corporation_ that
built VAXe[ns], hence the networking protocol was DECNET -- he'd written
the name down wrong. "Yeah, whatever" was his casual response.

Frankly, I have sympathy for the headhunters in a technical field: in my
opinion, only a geek knows and remembers the different versions of DOS and
how well each one did: DOS 3.1, 3.2, 3.3, 3.31, 4, 5, 6, 6.1 -- and that
some of those were Microsoft efforts and some were IBM productions. Then
there are the DR-DOS versions as well as the clones like PC-MOS.

To bring that attempted paralell into the present day, if you know the
provenance of the flavours of Unix/Linux, then you have a rough idea how
similar each version is (BSD vs. SysV). Some commands are more or less the
same across the flavours -- some will have you heading to the man page in
frustration. Some are better at networking, some are better as desktops.
Post by Phillip Mills
Apart from discouraging capable candidates, the problem with
ridiculous/impossible requirements is that a literal, checklist
approach to screening responses gets the managers interviewees who have
been selected for their ability to generate B.S.
I imagine the literal checklist happening with a left-brained or junior HR
drone writing up the ad.

The intelligent job seeker will use a cover letter to explain that while
their resume says ThisDatabase 7.1, version 7.3 (what the employer has
specified) is almost identical in functionality .. that's exactly what a
cover letter can be used for -- to fine-tune the resume to target a
specific employer.

And if the only thing separating you from getting a job is a difference in
SQL flavours, that's really not a big problem unless you're expected to do
some Pretty Magical Things with the system tables. For the most part, SQL
is SQL.

Alex


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Phillip Mills
2004-08-23 14:50:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@public.gmane.org
The intelligent job seeker will use a cover letter to explain that while
their resume says ThisDatabase 7.1, version 7.3 (what the employer has
specified) is almost identical in functionality .. that's exactly what a
cover letter can be used for -- to fine-tune the resume to target a
specific employer.
And if the only thing separating you from getting a job is a
difference in
SQL flavours, that's really not a big problem unless you're expected to do
some Pretty Magical Things with the system tables. For the most part, SQL
is SQL.
Yes, in a practical world, I agree with both these concepts. The
problem is when the requirements are used as a literal filter function
so that the cover letter or logical explanation never gets to the
decision maker.

When I last hired people (1996, I believe), I was looking for Java
programmers. This was before there were any great number of those
available, so I was being flexible...OOP skills or C experience and
some idea of structuring code was fine. (Our project was one of the
first ever to get Sun's Pure Java certification.) I was seeing 300
applications for job postings, including some where the closest match
to requirements was carpentry. As I understand it, job ads in Toronto
today garner numbers closer to 2500 if they're widely distributed. The
point being that, since some kind of semi-automatic filtering is
necessary, the organizations should be more careful about criteria and
focus on true requirements instead of superficiality.

(BTW, another ex-VAX person?)

........................
Phillip Mills
Multi-platform software development
(416) 224-0714

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James Knott
2004-08-23 15:06:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Mills
(BTW, another ex-VAX person?)
I used to support a few VAX 11/780 systems, back in the days, when I was
a computer tech. Those used to be considered a fairly powerful system.
Then the 386 came out and had as much computing horsepower as the VAX!.
A bit cheaper too. ;-)

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Phillip Mills
2004-08-23 15:41:58 UTC
Permalink
Those used to be considered a fairly powerful system. Then the 386
came out and had as much computing horsepower as the VAX!.
A bit cheaper too. ;-)
I once worked with a person who had a functional clone of VMS that ran
on Intel chips. It was cute, but not terribly quick. One of the neat
VMS tricks was that the VAX architecture included opcodes implemented
specifically to support common OS operations like scheduling and
context switching.

I never had an opportunity to try Linux on Alpha. Now, if the
development of that chip had been supported decently....

........................
Phillip Mills
Multi-platform software development
(416) 224-0714

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James Knott
2004-08-23 15:57:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Mills
Those used to be considered a fairly powerful system. Then the 386
came out and had as much computing horsepower as the VAX!.
A bit cheaper too. ;-)
I once worked with a person who had a functional clone of VMS that ran
on Intel chips. It was cute, but not terribly quick. One of the neat
VMS tricks was that the VAX architecture included opcodes implemented
specifically to support common OS operations like scheduling and context
switching.
Another thing, was the microcode, which ran the CPU, was loaded in from
floppy, on boot up. If you were so inclined, you could write your own
instructions. The Data General Eclipse computers also had that ability,
but instead of loading it from floppy at boot, you had to load the WCS
(writable control store), after the computer had booted.

The VAX had the LSI-11, which included the floppy drive and was also
what the terminal connected to (remember STP?). If not being used for
booting or running the monitor program, the floppy and terminal could be
used as regular devices, attached to the VAX. Incidentally, those VAX
systems were my first experience with ethernet (thicknet), though my
first network experience was with some Collins 8500C systems. Collins
had invented the first computer lan back in the 60's, but used time
division multiplexing on the cable, instead of packets.
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Terry Tanski
2004-08-23 15:06:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Mills
(BTW, another ex-VAX person?)
Don't worry, there are more of us lerking in the shadows.

Terry
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Christopher Browne
2004-08-23 15:43:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@public.gmane.org
And if the only thing separating you from getting a job is a difference in
SQL flavours, that's really not a big problem unless you're expected to do
some Pretty Magical Things with the system tables. For the most part, SQL
is SQL.
Actually, I have to disagree with that one.

One of my coworkers implemented a data conversion (dump from source
system, load into destination system) because the query capabilities in
the source system (MySQL) were so much more primitive than in any
self-respecting SQL implementation.

There _are_ pretty big differences between the different flavours of SQL
out there, between:

- Some databases only feigning compliance with standards, thereby
mandating that you design your application to do a whole lot
of work that a DBMS ought to be able to do for you (typical with
MySQL);

- Some databases only performing acceptably if you make intense
use of entirely non-portable proprietary extensions (typical with
Oracle and the various Sybase spinoffs).

Yes, there may be a bit of "lingua franca" in common, but it's really
not all that large :-(.
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Peter L. Peres
2004-08-24 00:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Browne
Post by t***@public.gmane.org
And if the only thing separating you from getting a job is a difference in
SQL flavours, that's really not a big problem unless you're expected to do
some Pretty Magical Things with the system tables. For the most part, SQL
is SQL.
Actually, I have to disagree with that one.
One of my coworkers implemented a data conversion (dump from source
system, load into destination system) because the query capabilities in
the source system (MySQL) were so much more primitive than in any
self-respecting SQL implementation.
Me too ;-) Written in Perl to prune headings and even column widths from
printout (!) formatted data from the old database, for input to
Postgresql. Then I made a simple front end for testing, using
apache/ssl/php4/postgresql backend. I did this a few years ago. It turns
out this is the only way to exchange data between really old apps and new
ones. The old app supported .dbf export but I did not trust compatibility
at that level (with foreign langiage characters in the fields and a
database that has never been audited - brr).

I think that it's important to have the skills to do this, or to know
someone who can do it.

Peter
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Peter L. Peres
2004-08-24 00:34:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Doncaster
I find it rather ironic when people complain about not getting an
interview at a company due to stupid hiring practices. If it's a dumb
company, why would anyone intelligent want to work there?
If a company is doing interesting things with neat technology, it may not be
a dumb company. If it's of any size at all, it may have a "dumb"
employee...or a smart employee who did a "dumb" thing. (Let's see...have I
*ever* felt as if I could be described that way?)
Also, no job description for a position with any creative scope ever survives
contact with reality. Within a month, the person getting the job will have
modified it by applying knowledge that the hiring manager didn't have. Even
without that, in any technology-oriented company, people, projects, and goals
change frequently. (Which is why I shake my head so often at ads that insist
on experience with "SomeDatabase version 13.04".)
Apart from discouraging capable candidates, the problem with
ridiculous/impossible requirements is that a literal, checklist approach to
screening responses gets the managers interviewees who have been selected for
their ability to generate B.S.
I agree with all you've said excepting the "SomeDatabase version 13.04"
issue, which can be intrepreted as "we're desperately stuck with our
mega-application which runs only on this, and we need you like air to make
it work because however much you ask is less than what it takes for us to
port the application".

Peter
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Phillip Mills
2004-08-23 20:42:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter L. Peres
I agree with all you've said excepting the "SomeDatabase version
13.04" issue, which can be intrepreted as "we're desperately stuck
with our mega-application which runs only on this, and we need you
like air to make it work because however much you ask is less than
what it takes for us to port the application".
If it's a short-term contract, you're most likely correct. But I'm
seeing the equivalent requirement so often on job ads...well, can that
many people be "desperately stuck" on so many types of technology?

I think perhaps it's a hangover from when IT jobs were plentiful.
Nobody wanted to spend money on training, assuming that the person
trained would be recruited away from them in seconds. The flip side of
that coin is that their new employees must be completely familiar with
their environment. Now, though lots of skilled people are available,
the "raiding" habit hasn't died. Which also shows up in requirements
as an insistence that the candidate must have acquired technology
experience inside a particular industry.

(Out of curiosity, I just executed a Workopolis search that I use. Of
the first ten positions returned, four specified software version
numbers and another three specified an industry type.)

........................
Phillip Mills
Multi-platform software development
(416) 224-0714

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Robert Brockway
2004-08-14 23:26:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron Vegh
It's a Windows world out there, and if you know anyone that says
different, I'd love to meet them.
Seriously, plenty of real work happens without MS-Windows being involved
at all.

Because MS-Windows currently dominates the desktop many make the mistake
of believing it dominates the rest of computing too. Trust me, it
doesn't. If you want real throughput for your database or you want to do
some number crunching, you use Unix (or a mainframe).

I've consulted into financial institutions, insurance companies, debt
recovery agencies, and lots of other types of organisations in different
countries. Anyone who has serious data management needs is on Unix or a
Mainframe (where they are often unix Unix services). Ditto for scientific
apps and a lot of other functions.

There are plenty of opportunities for Unix programmers and Sysadmins out
there. Unix developers and sysadmins are paid more too (as shown by SAGE
salary surveys and others).

Linux has made huge inroads in the last couple of years as has been widely
reported. It'll be a few more years yet before many of the conservative
Unix admins out there will trust it for big iron jobs (I talk to them
often :) There are still quite a few Unix admins who have berely touched
Linux or OSS (including Free/Net/OpenBSD), amazingly.

Cheers,
Rob
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Robert Brockway
2004-08-14 23:30:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron Vegh
Good day,
I was wondering if anyone here knows about programming courses in the
Toronto area? And I'm not talking about VB, Visual C++, .NET stuff. I
want to learn the stuff the hackers use -- from the shell to C to C++
to Python... in short, how to program in an open source environment.
It's a Windows world out there, and if you know anyone that says
different, I'd love to meet them.
Sorry to follow-up again. One other comment on the teching of Unix
courses. A lot of schools seem to have fallen out of touch with the life
of the industry (many still tech classful routing) and I did see Unix
courses decline. They seem to be coming back though, IMHO.

A friend of mine did a multi-year diaploma course which did not cover Unix
at all. He volunteered at my work place at the time to get some Unix
experience and ended up as a Solaris admin :) He tells me they
reintroduced Unix to the course a couple of years after he finished.
*sigh* :)

Rob
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fcsoft-3Emkkp+
2004-08-15 11:23:43 UTC
Permalink
You might want to check out the very popular online courses at

http://www.icanprogram.com/nofeecourses.html

that are offered online without fees. All they ask is that you make a
Cancer research donation in memory of one of the founders.

bob
Post by Aaron Vegh
Good day,
I was wondering if anyone here knows about programming courses in the
Toronto area? And I'm not talking about VB, Visual C++, .NET stuff. I
want to learn the stuff the hackers use -- from the shell to C to C++
to Python... in short, how to program in an open source environment.
It's a Windows world out there, and if you know anyone that says
different, I'd love to meet them.
Thanks,
Aaron.
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Aaron Vegh
2004-08-16 01:35:03 UTC
Permalink
That's fabulous! I've signed up for their next intro course. Thanks
all for your replies(esp. Marc Evelyn and fcsoft), I look forward to
becoming a success at this!

Cheers,
Aaron.
Post by fcsoft-3Emkkp+
You might want to check out the very popular online courses at
http://www.icanprogram.com/nofeecourses.html
that are offered online without fees. All they ask is that you make a
Cancer research donation in memory of one of the founders.
bob
Post by Aaron Vegh
Good day,
I was wondering if anyone here knows about programming courses in the
Toronto area? And I'm not talking about VB, Visual C++, .NET stuff. I
want to learn the stuff the hackers use -- from the shell to C to C++
to Python... in short, how to program in an open source environment.
It's a Windows world out there, and if you know anyone that says
different, I'd love to meet them.
Thanks,
Aaron.
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Devin Whalen
2004-08-16 14:56:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron Vegh
That's fabulous! I've signed up for their next intro course. Thanks
all for your replies(esp. Marc Evelyn and fcsoft), I look forward to
becoming a success at this!
Cheers,
Aaron.
Maybe you can let me know how the course works out. I want to get into
some open source development myself. Although, right now I am busy
upgrading my current skills because they are the ones that pay the bills
:).
Post by Aaron Vegh
Post by Aaron Vegh
It's a Windows world out there, and if you know anyone that says
different, I'd love to meet them.
Seriously, plenty of real work happens without MS-Windows being involved
at all.
Everything that we do is all open source (Linux,PostgreSQL,Apache,mod_perl,perl,freeBSD etc). So I
agree that there is plenty of open source projects being used in the business world.


Later
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Fax- (416) 539-8280
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Toronto, Ontario
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James McIntosh
2004-08-15 16:28:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron Vegh
Good day,
I was wondering if anyone here knows about programming courses in the
Toronto area? And I'm not talking about VB, Visual C++, .NET stuff. I
want to learn the stuff the hackers use -- from the shell to C to C++
to Python... in short, how to program in an open source environment.
It's a Windows world out there, and if you know anyone that says
different, I'd love to meet them.
Thanks,
Aaron.
Several years ago, I took a shell programming course for UNIX,
at Ryerson, in the Yonge Street and Dundas east area.

Jim McIntosh 416-292-8126 <jemcinto-cpI+UMyWUv+w5LPnMra/***@public.gmane.org>


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JoeHill
2004-08-14 13:01:33 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:46:39 -0400 (EDT)
Post by Henry Spencer
Post by JoeHill
BTW, I meant to ask before, why in the name of all that is holy is it so
freaking hard to disconnect power cables from HD's?!
Well, you don't want them to disconnect themselves by accident...! :-)
That said, it's hard because they use an old, cheap connector design,
which we now seem to be stuck with forever. It's all IBM's fault. :-)
Well, next time I take a chunk of flesh out of my thumb trying to disconnect
one, I know who to sue ;-)
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lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/ (Lennart Sorensen)
2004-08-16 13:34:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by JoeHill
Well, next time I take a chunk of flesh out of my thumb trying to disconnect
one, I know who to sue ;-)
Why would you have a case that could do that to your fingers? Mine
certainly doesn't have any sharp edges inside. I worry about breaking
the connector sometimes, but not my fingers.

Lennart Sorensen
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JoeHill
2004-08-16 18:28:56 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:34:03 -0400
Post by lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/ (Lennart Sorensen)
Post by JoeHill
Well, next time I take a chunk of flesh out of my thumb trying to disconnect
one, I know who to sue ;-)
Why would you have a case that could do that to your fingers? Mine
certainly doesn't have any sharp edges inside. I worry about breaking
the connector sometimes, but not my fingers.
I was thinking of those 'grips' on each side of the power connector. They *do*
allow one to get a good grip on the connector, however they are rather small
with sharp edges. I've left some pretty good 'dents' in my thumb and fingers
from those on occasion.
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lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/ (Lennart Sorensen)
2004-08-16 13:32:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henry Spencer
Post by JoeHill
BTW, I meant to ask before, why in the name of all that is holy is it so
freaking hard to disconnect power cables from HD's?!
Well, you don't want them to disconnect themselves by accident...! :-)
That said, it's hard because they use an old, cheap connector design,
which we now seem to be stuck with forever. It's all IBM's fault. :-)
At least SATA doesn't use them anymore. Yay! The new SATA connectors
have different pin lengths to allow for hotpluging.

Lennart Sorensen
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Robert Brockway
2004-08-14 23:01:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by JoeHill
BTW, I meant to ask before, why in the name of all that is holy is it so
freaking hard to disconnect power cables from HD's?!
The funny thing is when I was at high school I worked weekends at Radio
Shack (actually called Tandy in Australia). Those damn connectors were
labelled "Quick Disconnects". Yeah right.

The smaller ones on the floppy drives are worse. Whos stupid idea was it
to put in a flap that needs to be lifted to get the power disconnected and
then make it almost impossible to lift it with your fingers? Insane.
They were also labelled Quick Disconnects FWIW :)

Rob
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JoeHill
2004-08-15 00:14:54 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:01:58 -0400 (EDT)
Those damn connectors were labelled "Quick Disconnects". Yeah right.
Well, with ViceGrips on the power connector and the HD braced against the
bottoms of your feet maybe?
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lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/ (Lennart Sorensen)
2004-08-16 13:38:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Brockway
The funny thing is when I was at high school I worked weekends at Radio
Shack (actually called Tandy in Australia). Those damn connectors were
labelled "Quick Disconnects". Yeah right.
The smaller ones on the floppy drives are worse. Whos stupid idea was it
to put in a flap that needs to be lifted to get the power disconnected and
then make it almost impossible to lift it with your fingers? Insane.
They were also labelled Quick Disconnects FWIW :)
Quick yes, easy no. I think anything that doesn't involve screws is
considered a quick disconnect. If you could get a good grip on it, and
lift the tab, it would be very quick to disconnect. :)

Lennart Sorensen
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John Macdonald
2004-08-16 16:28:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/ (Lennart Sorensen)
Post by Robert Brockway
The funny thing is when I was at high school I worked weekends at Radio
Shack (actually called Tandy in Australia). Those damn connectors were
labelled "Quick Disconnects". Yeah right.
The smaller ones on the floppy drives are worse. Whos stupid idea was it
to put in a flap that needs to be lifted to get the power disconnected and
then make it almost impossible to lift it with your fingers? Insane.
They were also labelled Quick Disconnects FWIW :)
Quick yes, easy no. I think anything that doesn't involve screws is
considered a quick disconnect. If you could get a good grip on it, and
lift the tab, it would be very quick to disconnect. :)
Speaking of easy and screw connections...

My pet peeve is the simple convenient screw-on
co-ax connectors used for TV and cable signals.
Just about every TV, VCR, or whatever that uses this
has the receptacle recessed inside a sunken area and
the surrounding border makes it impossible to turn
the connector to screw it in or out with anything
more than your fingernails for a tiny fraction of
a rotation.
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Howard Gibson
2004-08-12 01:52:07 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:30:30 -0400
Post by JoeHill
JoeHill RLU #282046 / www.freeyourmachine.org
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"One of the most dangerous errors of our time is the belief that human beings
are uniquely violent animals, barely restrained from committing atrocities on
each other by the constraints of ethics, religion, and the state." -- Eric S.
Raymond
Uh, I think Eric is recommending guns here. This will probably not help you recover your data. :)
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JoeHill
2004-08-12 21:54:13 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 21:52:07 -0400
Post by Howard Gibson
Uh, I think Eric is recommending guns here. This will probably not help
you recover your data. :)
LOL! Fortunately for *me*, it is not my data, but that of a friend who has now
learned the 'backing up lesson' the hard way, having to decide between permanent
loss of data and paying through the arse :-D
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live in that alternate universe where SCO would be right, they'd still be wrong.
-- Linus Torvalds
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